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Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 19:35 21 Jun 2019
by Frank_Butcher
Can’t see that Mike. The WA was surely the best hope of avoiding a hardBrexit. It’s now more likely than ever (though still unlikely IMO).

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 05:54 22 Jun 2019
by Mike E
The reality is that the Brexit debate has shifted, especially in the minds of ordinary voters, away from the benefits of staying or leaving the EU to 'honouring the referendum' come what may.

Despite the clearer facts that have emerged over the last three years on the dangers to our NHS, food standards, peace, jobs, the break up of the UK, etc, the right wing press are blaming those nasty europeans for blocking democracy, and in certain cases often refers to Europe as the enemy.

This is probably why opinions have become more entrenched. If the facts as we know them now had been clearer three years ago the margin of 52/48 would more likely have been the other way.

Farage, the ERG, and the right wing press managed to wedge their foot in the door in 2016 and have managed to play the democracy card to counter against facts ever since. Their fear is that over time democracy will be called upon again, as always, and that eventually it will seem perfectly natural to ask the people what they think once more.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 08:22 22 Jun 2019
by Frank_Butcher
Facts. Things become fact when they are material or actually happen. Nothing has happened.

I recall the interview with the executive from MAG who was utterly frustrated that people were being led to believe that air traffic would cease. And I'm not sure what crystal ball you've been looking through but I understood that food standards are likely to be maintained - Gov.uk even offers guidance in the event of deal or no deal.

And be honest Mike, you have absolutely no idea what the consequences might or might not be for the NHS or anything else. To be fair, how could you?

It's just a list of things that you've read about somewhere (which is of course someone else's opinion), or that you believe may happen. All presented as fact, with no consideration even of whether there is a deal or not. Easy to do.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 21:15 23 Jun 2019
by Ave_IT
Frank_Butcher wrote: Facts. Things become fact when they are material or actually happen. Nothing has happened.

I recall the interview with the executive from MAG who was utterly frustrated that people were being led to believe that air traffic would cease. And I'm not sure what crystal ball you've been looking through but I understood that food standards are likely to be maintained - Gov.uk even offers guidance in the event of deal or no deal.

And be honest Mike, you have absolutely no idea what the consequences might or might not be for the NHS or anything else. To be fair, how could you?

It's just a list of things that you've read about somewhere (which is of course someone else's opinion), or that you believe may happen. All presented as fact, with no consideration even of whether there is a deal or not. Easy to do.

.....and if I decided to remortgage my house and put my entire pension and life savings on a horse in the 3.30 at Newton Abbott you haven't got a crystal ball or any Facts to prove I'm making a huge mistake. You might point out that virtually all the horse racing experts think I'm wrong for a whole bunch of different reasons but by your logic I could dismiss that as just a list of things you've read - as just opinions.

But how the Hell do we make any important decision if its not by reading and listening to the opinions of experts and then weighing up the risks? .....Should we listen instead to those who tell us to ignore experts and say "F**k business" when challenged?

As for your assertion that Mike " has absolutely no idea about what the consequences for the NHS might or might not be" - well maybe he thinks he does because he read the expert opinion of the BMA who spell it out quite clearly (see link)........or must we wait for our Brexit nag to fall before admitting it was s friggin' stupid thing to do?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... D9maMRH2r9

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 06:27 24 Jun 2019
by Frank_Butcher
Ave_IT wrote:
Frank_Butcher wrote: Facts. Things become fact when they are material or actually happen. Nothing has happened.

I recall the interview with the executive from MAG who was utterly frustrated that people were being led to believe that air traffic would cease. And I'm not sure what crystal ball you've been looking through but I understood that food standards are likely to be maintained - Gov.uk even offers guidance in the event of deal or no deal.

And be honest Mike, you have absolutely no idea what the consequences might or might not be for the NHS or anything else. To be fair, how could you?

It's just a list of things that you've read about somewhere (which is of course someone else's opinion), or that you believe may happen. All presented as fact, with no consideration even of whether there is a deal or not. Easy to do.

.....and if I decided to remortgage my house and put my entire pension and life savings on a horse in the 3.30 at Newton Abbott you haven't got a crystal ball or any Facts to prove I'm making a huge mistake. You might point out that virtually all the horse racing experts think I'm wrong for a whole bunch of different reasons but by your logic I could dismiss that as just a list of things you've read - as just opinions.

But how the Hell do we make any important decision if its not by reading and listening to the opinions of experts and then weighing up the risks? .....Should we listen instead to those who tell us to ignore experts and say "F**k business" when challenged?

As for your assertion that Mike " has absolutely no idea about what the consequences for the NHS might or might not be" - well maybe he thinks he does because he read the expert opinion of the BMA who spell it out quite clearly (see link)........or must we wait for our Brexit nag to fall before admitting it was s friggin' stupid thing to do?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... D9maMRH2r9


My point was about quoting facts and you've supplied a great example. Over a year old, the BMA document doesn't contain many facts (when it comes to impact) that I can see. But it suits the narrative of course. However, facts about what is being done about medicine supplies for example can be found here (and following embedded links) but conveniently ignored.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 09:10 24 Jun 2019
by Ave_IT
Frank_Butcher wrote:
Ave_IT wrote:
Frank_Butcher wrote: Facts. Things become fact when they are material or actually happen. Nothing has happened.

I recall the interview with the executive from MAG who was utterly frustrated that people were being led to believe that air traffic would cease. And I'm not sure what crystal ball you've been looking through but I understood that food standards are likely to be maintained - Gov.uk even offers guidance in the event of deal or no deal.

And be honest Mike, you have absolutely no idea what the consequences might or might not be for the NHS or anything else. To be fair, how could you?

It's just a list of things that you've read about somewhere (which is of course someone else's opinion), or that you believe may happen. All presented as fact, with no consideration even of whether there is a deal or not. Easy to do.

.....and if I decided to remortgage my house and put my entire pension and life savings on a horse in the 3.30 at Newton Abbott you haven't got a crystal ball or any Facts to prove I'm making a huge mistake. You might point out that virtually all the horse racing experts think I'm wrong for a whole bunch of different reasons but by your logic I could dismiss that as just a list of things you've read - as just opinions.

But how the Hell do we make any important decision if its not by reading and listening to the opinions of experts and then weighing up the risks? .....Should we listen instead to those who tell us to ignore experts and say "F**k business" when challenged?

As for your assertion that Mike " has absolutely no idea about what the consequences for the NHS might or might not be" - well maybe he thinks he does because he read the expert opinion of the BMA who spell it out quite clearly (see link)........or must we wait for our Brexit nag to fall before admitting it was s friggin' stupid thing to do?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... D9maMRH2r9


My point was about quoting facts and you've supplied a great example. Over a year old, the BMA document doesn't contain many facts (when it comes to impact) that I can see. But it suits the narrative of course. However, facts about what is being done about medicine supplies for example can be found here (and following embedded links) but conveniently ignored.

Has anything changed in the year the BMA made clear their deep concerns? NO… Indeed the link you provided is basically just a catalogue of instructions how to avoid the worst possible effects of a No-Deal and advises on contingency planning. (It’s like lighting a fire in the middle of your living room then issuing advice on how to avoid a blaze if it really gets out of hand …… better to not light it in the first place - surely?)…….

Companies are being specifically instructed to stockpile medicines - and we’re asked to accept assurances like:-
“The Government is working to ensure there is sufficient roll-on, roll-off freight capacity to enable medicines and medical products to continue to move freely into the UK”

…….and in the next breath…….

“In the event of delays caused by increased checks at EU ports, the Department will continue to develop the UK-wide contingency plan for medicines and vaccines with pharmaceutical companies and other government departments”.

Well that’s good of them – most reassuring isn't it?

Blimey – the more I read it gets worse – the Department have actually put in place a “Serious Shortages Protocol” ….then there’s a lot of stuff about the problems raised by batch testing of medicines, quality control and their qualifications.

Bloody Hell Frank !! – I’m going to stop following these links as they’re now starting to scare me – here’s a few quotes for you (from your link):_

In many cases, Brexit deadline will not be met for reasons outside of companies’ control.
There may not be enough laboratory facilities to carry out the necessary quality control testing in EU jurisdictions;
Shortages of QPs in the EU able to perform batch release onto the EU market;
The physical replication of the complex testing equipment, processes and technology transfers cannot be completed by the deadline.


FFS!! …….WHY? WHY is all this sort of contingency planning necessary? Does the NHS not have enough work and problems already?? ..... Are you seriously suggesting there is not at least a some grounds for serious concern ? Now multiply this sort of disruption across every aspect of business and our national lives.

IS IT WORTH IT???

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 11:09 24 Jun 2019
by Frank_Butcher
But you’re missing my point. I’m not arguing for or against Brexit, no deal or otherwise. The point was - and always has been on this topic - facts vs what are really just opinions suiting the narrative.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 11:43 24 Jun 2019
by Ave_IT
Frank_Butcher wrote: But you’re missing my point. I’m not arguing for or against Brexit, no deal or otherwise. The point was - and always has been on this topic - facts vs what are really just opinions suiting the narrative.

I don't think I'm missing your point at all. My point is we should form our own opinions based on the facts that are available and the opinions of experts who have experience and deep knowledge of a subject. That’s the rational way to make a decision – not gut feel, inherent prejudice or a vague wish for something different. We do have facts like the proportion of trade we do with the EU or the way our health service depends on EU nationals or the way we depend on drugs & equipment from EU sources ….. then we listen to opinions of experts who tell us about the likely impact and difficulties if we leave the EU ….then we form a conclusion whether the potential benefits (if they exist) outweigh the problems and disadvantages. What’s “narrative” got to do with anything? – unless all these facts and experts are just part of some widespread fake news agenda spinning us all a big lie (Project Fear)…….and we should comfort ourselves with someone else’s ‘alternative facts’.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 17:25 24 Jun 2019
by Pogleswoody
Frank_Butcher wrote: But you’re missing my point. I’m not arguing for or against Brexit, no deal or otherwise. The point was - and always has been on this topic - facts vs what are really just opinions suiting the narrative.


Not sure if you're right or wrong Frank but your opinion seems eminently feasible!! ;)

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 17:27 21 Jul 2019
by Martyn
With the possibility of two or more cabinet ministers, to resign once bonking Boris gets in, will further put the country into decline.

Tory politicians are again, putting their party before the good of the country.

A few people will decide to inflict Boris on us, therefore it will be a no deal Brexit.

What a state of affairs, the Tories are again fighting within themselves, with more cabinet ministers resigning and fractions breaking out within the tories, and the country will suffer from it.

What a shower of sh1te.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 18:58 21 Jul 2019
by Willis88
Martyn wrote: With the possibility of two or more cabinet ministers, to resign once bonking Boris gets in, will further put the country into decline.

Tory politicians are again, putting their party before the good of the country.

A few people will decide to inflict Boris on us, therefore it will be a no deal Brexit.

What a state of affairs, the Tories are again fighting within themselves, with more cabinet ministers resigning and fractions breaking out within the tories, and the country will suffer from it.

What a shower of sh1te.


Couple that with an inept opposition the state of politics in this country is a complete disaster.

I've been wondering what it would take to organise mass recall petitions, breathe some fear into them to sort them out.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 07:02 25 Jul 2019
by Martyn
We must have now, the most right wing cabinet and Government in our history, with an right wing PM.
The make up of the cabinet, just spouts ‘no deal’ Brexit, come Halloween. The must interesting appointment is a JRM, as leader of the House, to take on Bercow, Bonking Boris is determined no deal at all course .All the right wing cronies are walking with broad grins on their faces, like Bill Cash etc, awful feeling.

An ideal opportunity for the opposition then, Labour !!, ( that’s the end of that then).

I am pleading with all parties to get together and stop this nonsense, stop Brexit, stop Boris, stop this right wing Tories.

The outlook looks so very bleak.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 06:58 26 Jul 2019
by Lousy_Pint
I guess I'm lucky, as I live in Italy, but each day I feel more depressed for the UK.
What a sequence of 'unfortunate' events! Cameron with his backfiring gamble, the great British public vote, May and her completely blinkered view and now Boris.
Maybe worst of all is the completely inept opposition party, which has to be the most useless in British political history!
I really can't get me head around it all.
Luckily, we have Matteo Salvini here!