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Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 19:23 19 Mar 2019
by MickyD
Martyn wrote: Well done the speaker, you are a hero.

Insufferably smug showboater that he is - yes, he may yet turn out to be the saviour of our nation! :clap:

"We shall fight them on the benches..."

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 19:24 19 Mar 2019
by Pogleswoody
MickyD wrote:
Martyn wrote: Well done the speaker, you are a hero.

Insufferably smug showboater that he is - yes, he may yet turn out to be the savuiour of our nation! :clap:

"We shall fight them on the benches..."



If at first you don't succeed, I will rule it out of order! UNLOCK!! :thumbs:

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 19:43 19 Mar 2019
by Frank_Butcher
Martyn wrote:
Mike E wrote: The speaker referring back to precedent set in the 1600s reveals just how antiquated our parliamentary system and procedures really are.

It is about time the UK embraced the modern world and gave its people a democracy and constitution that was representative of their views. We have witnessed a three year pantomime of two stale and out of date institutions fighting to save themselves at the expense of the people they are supposed to serve.

British politics needs a massive shake up with new parties, new ideas and a reformed parliamentary system that encourages co-operation.


It is totally not about rules set in 1604,it is completely about the present government, treating Parliament and the country with utter contempt.

How dare she try to get her bad deal thru, 1,2,3 or. 4 times, when denying the public just a second vote.

How dare she, just to keep her party in power, and together at the National expense.

Well done the speaker, you are a hero.


I would quell your enthusiasm for Bercow pending the outcome. Barnier is very clear that any extension is to complete the WA, not to renegotiate. 29th March still looms large as a no deal exit and IMO has become more likely with the Speaker’s - perhaps misjudged - intervention.

As for party politics:

I suspect revocation is unlikely because Tory’s more dependent on Leave voters.

Corbyn sits down with SNP, Libs, Plaid etc to discuss supporting a second referendum, only to be entertained by his vision of Brexit.

So no revocation + no 2nd ref + no extension (on the grounds of no renegotiation) leaves what outcome do you think?

Someone needs to blink or else ......

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 19:55 19 Mar 2019
by Mike E
I agree Bercow did the right thing and reffering back to precedent allowed him to do so.

The point I am making is that the two party, fiirst past the post system dates so far back, it doesn't represent the diverse make up of the modern day electorate and the myriad of issues it throws up. it was designed for the male dominated landed gentry, for which the Conservatibe party still predominantly represent. The only choice we have is either them or Labour.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 20:36 19 Mar 2019
by CJH
Article 50 is owned by the UK and is a statement of intent and is not binding until it is enacted into law, therefore it is still in the power of the UK to withdraw that document and continue under the previous regulations. Parties effected by the original Article 50 are however entitled to compensation for any expenses occurred in that Article 50 process, as it was not instigated by them.

It would seem to me sensible to rescind the document and enter into meaningful discussions with the EU on how to address the issues that are bedevilling the whole EU for the benefit of all the EU members.

CJH

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 21:02 19 Mar 2019
by MickyD
But per Frank and others, unless I've completely misunderstood what's been going on (which is quite possible!) the default setting is still that the UK will leave the EU on the 29th March, deal or no deal (ugh - another reason to loathe Noel Edmonds) unless and until all 27 other member states agree to save our sorry bottoms in the very near future by allowing us an extension.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 22:28 19 Mar 2019
by Ave_IT
Frank_Butcher wrote:
Martyn wrote:
Mike E wrote: The speaker referring back to precedent set in the 1600s reveals just how antiquated our parliamentary system and procedures really are.

It is about time the UK embraced the modern world and gave its people a democracy and constitution that was representative of their views. We have witnessed a three year pantomime of two stale and out of date institutions fighting to save themselves at the expense of the people they are supposed to serve.

British politics needs a massive shake up with new parties, new ideas and a reformed parliamentary system that encourages co-operation.


It is totally not about rules set in 1604,it is completely about the present government, treating Parliament and the country with utter contempt.

How dare she try to get her bad deal thru, 1,2,3 or. 4 times, when denying the public just a second vote.

How dare she, just to keep her party in power, and together at the National expense.

Well done the speaker, you are a hero.


I would quell your enthusiasm for Bercow pending the outcome. Barnier is very clear that any extension is to complete the WA, not to renegotiate. 29th March still looms large as a no deal exit and IMO has become more likely with the Speaker’s - perhaps misjudged - intervention.

As for party politics:

I suspect revocation is unlikely because Tory’s more dependent on Leave voters.

Corbyn sits down with SNP, Libs, Plaid etc to discuss supporting a second referendum, only to be entertained by his vision of Brexit.

So no revocation + no 2nd ref + no extension (on the grounds of no renegotiation) leaves what outcome do you think?

Someone needs to blink or else ......

Yaaay Frank!.....where've you been?

We've missed that maddening voice of reason recently :wink: - this was becoming a bit of an echo chamber for us extremist Remoaners.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 06:09 20 Mar 2019
by Mike E
As Frank points out the speaker has pretty much limited our options.

In our attempt in taking 'back control' our clusterfcuk of a government have pretty much given control to Brussels who will more than likely say if you want more time you can only have it if you put it to the people. Leave with no deal or remain.


Although we are running out of time, you would expect the 'Put it to the people' march this Saturday will have an even bigger turn out than in Octoner last.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 07:17 20 Mar 2019
by Frank_Butcher
Lol - thanks Ave_IT.

Mike E wrote: As Frank points out the speaker has pretty much limited our options.

In our attempt in taking 'back control' our clusterfcuk of a government have pretty much given control to Brussels who will more than likely say if you want more time you can only have it if you put it to the people. Leave with no deal or remain.


Although we are running out of time, you would expect the 'Put it to the people' march this Saturday will have an even bigger turn out than in Octoner last.


Mike - something needs to change for sure in order to gain an extension at all, but I would be very surprised if there was a 2nd referendum. There is genuine concern about civil unrest (already rumours of planned lorry blockades) and the Conservatives are more dependent on Leavers than Labour are.

I think her argument will centre around indications that the ERG and DUP might/wil shift towards her deal (for fear of losing Brexit). That could be evidence based given recent behind the scenes meetings. They then have to figure out a way of getting it past Bercow.

My guess - extension = her deal goes through. No extension = no deal.

But who could possibly know ....

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 09:42 20 Mar 2019
by Ave_IT
I don’t think so Frank. For the first time now I think no-deal is beginning to look the most likely outcome. Yesterday May went to cabinet proposing a long-ish delay, which would probably mean a softer Brexit - then by several accounts (none contradicted) a furious row ensued and she backed down amid threats of several resignations and now she’s asking for a short delay. The ERG now have virtually no incentive to back her deal because the June date really is more of a cliff-edge with the Euro elections looming (May herself pointed this out before the first MV) so they can see a no-deal coming quickly down the tracks. I was listening to a furious Anna Soubury this morning who was making this point and accusing May of putting her attempts to hold the Tory party together ahead of the national interest – “beyond outrageous” was her verdict and other journalists commentators pretty much agreed with her analysis (although that is on the Leftie, Remoaner BBC of course).

On a side note – did anyone else notice the story about the French foreign minister who has called her cat ‘Brexit’? Apparently it wakes her up whining, wanting to be let out but when she opens the door it just hangs around in the doorway looking angrily back at her. :lol:

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 14:42 20 Mar 2019
by Frank_Butcher
I think the decision around an extension is critical. The EU are apparently reluctant to go with June. They want 23rd May - or a long extension. The latter would kill Brexit in my opinion. The former concentrates the mind.

But let's say the EU27 give way to a May/June extension, I can see a war of attrition coming. Pressure will mount on the ERG and DUP to fall in line - either through the threat of no Brexit and/or a Jeremy Corbyn government (by way of a GE); or by some 'committments' for NI - if you know what I mean.... So, I guess that's an incentive for the DUP, and a deterrent for the ERG.

It's also notable that some ERG folks were already mooting a move to back TM's deal in the last week or so, prior to Bercowgate.

That's why I think the outcome is most likely to be TMs deal squeaking through (again, caveated that an extension being granted). But no extension must surely mean no deal now or another intervention to stop it - could a GE do this?

In reality I'm not convinced there are more than a handful of Brexiteers who really want no deal.

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 16:25 20 Mar 2019
by Frank_Butcher
Tusk puts the ball firmly back in the Speaker's court. No extension without WA approval.

Did TM call a favour?

Re: Government Brexit Proposal & DD Resignation

Posted: 18:04 20 Mar 2019
by Balham_Green
The logical conclusion would be a longer extension rather than trying to force a vote on the least bad option because they have no other choice. What way is that to run the country? Bercow was absolutely correct to rule out a third vote on the same deal as the previous 2. Makes no sense at all.