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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:04 pm 
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X Isle wrote:
...or 'Little Englanders'...

...or uneducated...

...or idiots...

...or any of the other dummy spitting spoilt child remarks that bitter remoaners have labelled the majority of the British voting public.



The majority of the 72.2% that voted? :think:


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Quinny wrote:
Nope, I personally don't buy into that mindset, Frank. If the people of this country think that just because a decision was democratically decided upon we have to go through with it, even if those same people think it was the wrong decision, then they shouldn't be allowed to vote. As David Davis himself said back in 2012, if a democracy cannot change it's mind, then it ceases to be a democracy. If the majority now think it's a bad idea, and if most MPs secretly think it's a bad idea, then somebody has to have the balls to stop this lunacy, and hang what the likes of Redmond or Rees-Mogg want. As a friend of mine said, if TM were to turn around and say "enough of this, we're staying", it might be the end of her career, but history will record her as making one of the bravest political decisions of all time.


Mr Davis also thought referendums weren't such a good idea:

"
David Davis: There is a proper role for referendums in constitutional change, but only if done properly. If it is
26 Nov 2002 : Column 202
not done properly, it can be a dangerous tool. The Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, who is no longer in the Chamber, said that Clement Attlee—who is, I think, one of the Deputy Prime Minister's heroes—famously described the referendum as the device of demagogues and dictators. We may not always go as far as he did, but what is certain is that pre-legislative referendums of the type the Deputy Prime Minister is proposing are the worst type of all.
Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgment. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting. So legislation should be debated by Members of Parliament on the Floor of the House, and then put to the electorate for the voters to judge.
We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it."

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... 126-17.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:24 am
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All very interesting but Davis was on the backbenches at the time of the referendum.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:02 am 
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Pogleswoody wrote:
X Isle wrote:
...or 'Little Englanders'...

...or uneducated...

...or idiots...

...or any of the other dummy spitting spoilt child remarks that bitter remoaners have labelled the majority of the British voting public.



The majority of the 72.2% that voted? :think:

F**k me, a hair splitting semantic diversion from the question, who'd have thunk it on this thread eh?

That's how it works Poggles, how it has always worked. If you don't vote when you could vote, then you don't count.

The majority of those who voted (and thems the only ones what count innit) have been sweepingly labelled all manner of unnecessary and false things. Not just by Martyn and his ilk on here, but in the wider media, both social and mainstream.

I too would be interested in hearing an answer to Gandalf's question without the voting majority being labelled racist, uneducated, idiotic or any of the other slurs that have accompanied answers thus far.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:44 am 
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Good news this morning that both parties have reached agreement to move forward to trade talks...

...now watch the remaining EU countries collectively fudge a way into saying no to it, into arguing the toss about a minor point, heck we might even get the Wolloonian parish councils back in the news again :facepalm:

And this is precisely why THIS 'racist, uneducated idiotic little englander' (your labels, not mine) wanted out.

We could've got to this point in weeks, not months if the leviathon entity that us the EU didn't tread in treacle while seeking to rig precontitions to their advantage. Today's achievement marks nothing. EU control freekery, It's so called 'democratic process' now kicks in, trying to get the agreement of 27 nations on what to call chocolate takes decades, so this rigged precondition laden 'deal' won't be ratified any time soon.

THIS is my problem with the EU. It's too much of a fudge, too many cooks not so much spoiling the broth but never even starting the broth because they can't agree on which colour pen to even write the ingredients down with, let alone what the ingredients might actually be. The EU knows this, which is why they are ultimately driving towards a federal super state, to streamline decision making. Far better out than in something like that

We need a comprehensive trade, security and infrastructure deal, an all encompassing agreement. I don't for a second suggest that is easy. But right from the off one side, the EU, sets arbitrary preconditions. You must agree to pay us money, you must tell us your plans for X Y and Z, only then will we talk about the deal as a whole. The restraint of our side not to tell them where to stick their preconditions is amazing.

Yet in the media and wider social discussions, such as this thread, it's OUR side that gets criticised, OUR actions that get scrutinised, OUR position that gets fingers pointed. Who is doing the same to the leviathon?

Barrier and Tusk say something and it's treated as gospel, as the definitive last word of probity and integrity. May or Davies say something and it's jumped all over. And this is all by OUR nation's subjects, OUR national broadcasters correspondents. If I had my way i'd add undermining British negotiations to the definition of treason.

And so this sh1t itchingly tortuous process rolls on, you think It's slow now just wait until trade gets going. Not that they will but commentators, national and individual, need to call out where the delays are coming from, where the preconditions, hurdles and fudge originate.

It is painful, it'll only get worse before we're rid of them. But every day that passes, every smug dismissive remark from an EU official that gets aired, the more convinced I am than ever that the British public made the right decision to free itself from this entity.

It'll be well worth it in the end.

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:05 am 
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X Isle wrote:
...or 'Little Englanders'...

...or uneducated...

...or idiots...

...or any of the other dummy spitting spoilt child remarks that bitter remoaners have labelled the majority of the British voting public.


I put up with years and years and years and years of whining and moaning and complaining and bile and bitter twisting of facts from the Britain Out Of Europe mob. Time to give it back, get used to it yer (insult own prefered insult here) :wave:

Edited , because I couldn't spell "bitter" :greensmile:

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:48 pm 
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X Isle wrote:
Good news this morning that both parties have reached agreement to move forward to trade talks...

...now watch the remaining EU countries collectively fudge a way into saying no to it, into arguing the toss about a minor point, heck we might even get the Wolloonian parish councils back in the news again :facepalm:

And this is precisely why THIS 'racist, uneducated idiotic little englander' (your labels, not mine) wanted out.

We could've got to this point in weeks, not months if the leviathon entity that us the EU didn't tread in treacle while seeking to rig precontitions to their advantage. Today's achievement marks nothing. EU control freekery, It's so called 'democratic process' now kicks in, trying to get the agreement of 27 nations on what to call chocolate takes decades, so this rigged precondition laden 'deal' won't be ratified any time soon.

THIS is my problem with the EU. It's too much of a fudge, too many cooks not so much spoiling the broth but never even starting the broth because they can't agree on which colour pen to even write the ingredients down with, let alone what the ingredients might actually be. The EU knows this, which is why they are ultimately driving towards a federal super state, to streamline decision making. Far better out than in something like that

We need a comprehensive trade, security and infrastructure deal, an all encompassing agreement. I don't for a second suggest that is easy. But right from the off one side, the EU, sets arbitrary preconditions. You must agree to pay us money, you must tell us your plans for X Y and Z, only then will we talk about the deal as a whole. The restraint of our side not to tell them where to stick their preconditions is amazing.

Yet in the media and wider social discussions, such as this thread, it's OUR side that gets criticised, OUR actions that get scrutinised, OUR position that gets fingers pointed. Who is doing the same to the leviathon?

Barrier and Tusk say something and it's treated as gospel, as the definitive last word of probity and integrity. May or Davies say something and it's jumped all over. And this is all by OUR nation's subjects, OUR national broadcasters correspondents. If I had my way i'd add undermining British negotiations to the definition of treason.

And so this sh1t itchingly tortuous process rolls on, you think It's slow now just wait until trade gets going. Not that they will but commentators, national and individual, need to call out where the delays are coming from, where the preconditions, hurdles and fudge originate.

It is painful, it'll only get worse before we're rid of them. But every day that passes, every smug dismissive remark from an EU official that gets aired, the more convinced I am than ever that the British public made the right decision to free itself from this entity.

It'll be well worth it in the end.

Hard to know where to start with that….. but I’ll give it a go.

How can you call the EU process “control freakery” at the same time as lambasting them for spending endless amounts of time debating amongst themselves the colour of chocolate? Either you’re an undemocratic control freak determined to impose your own will on everyone regardless - or you’re not. Either you’re a prevaricating talking shop that never gets anything achieved or you’re not. You can’t be both at the same time. One minute the reason for leaving is because we’re being forced to conform into a monolithic super state controlled from the heart of darkness (Brussels) - the next we’re held back by 27 continually squabbling committees who can’t make up their minds about chocolate. That’s the trouble with the Brexiteers – comic book stereotyping of complex, real world processes. It’s dumbed-down, pub politics. A gut reaction searching for a justification.

Their preconditions were perfectly understandable. We were part of the club – we were the ones who had made promises and commitments to that club. Then we tell them we are going F-off, not abide by any of the rules anymore (rules we’d previously played a major part in making) and not pay our subscriptions anymore …….. but…..then again ….. we would very much like all our old benefits of membership to remain exactly the same thanks very much. Imagine that was the French leaving – what would we say? Imagine the Daily Mail’s reaction - the screaming headlines about how the Frogs owed us billions in broken promises – and what about the rights of British workers & families in France after Frexit? You know full well our first reaction would be – “Hang-on a frigging moment Jean-Paul – you pay us what you frigging owe us first AND guarantee the rights of our people THEN we can talk about what YOU want and what we MIGHT give you”. That’s just what they said to us. As for your admiration at our restraint in not telling them where to stick it – be honest - we couldn’t. We need some kind of an agreement MUCH more than they do. So we’ve (eventually) offered the money and the guarantees.

The analogy breaks down because the French don’t have the kind of intensely sensitive border we have with Ireland. Without the EU there wouldn’t have been a Good Friday agreement in the first place. But now we want to ‘take back control of our borders’, do our own thing with customs & trade & regulations & immigration …….. but simultaneously want an open border where it suits us. How the-F can that work? Today’s ‘breakthrough’ has come up with the phrase “Full alignment” to get around this conundrum. Note that the phrase says FULL alignment, not ‘partial’ but FULL alignment. Well I guess that would work – if there is no change, no difference to rules and regulations on either side then you don’t need a border. QED.

But what then does Brexit mean? Are we going through all this pain to end up basically still inside the EU (or at least semi-detached) but have just given up any say in the decision making? There’s the nub of it – nobody has ever defined what Brexit means – we’re on a train with no known destination and everyone who wanted to get on it either didn’t care where it was going or have their own quite different ideas. FULL alignment certainly implies membership of the single market and customs union but May has already said that isn’t the case. The chancellor revealed the Prime Minister has not allowed her ministers to even discuss the “end state” of Brexit that the government is aiming for!!

So no bloody wonder then that it’s OUR side that gets criticised, and OUR side being mostly asked the questions and so the “sh1t itchingly, tortuous process” rolls on due to us. We started it – and are making it up as we go. Like you I’m more convinced than ever about the way I voted……. and I’ll vote that way next time :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:44 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:56 am
Strange how the Brexiters wanted a border free border in Northern Ireland, which is one of the agreements and successes of the EU.

The awful DUP, want a borderless region, but still want out of the EU, very strange.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:07 am 
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It's something I can't get my head around, Martyn. Probably THE biggest issue which was the driving force behind the #Leave campaign (bar lying about £350million a week for the NHS) was uncontrolled immigration. Yet thanks to this agreement, someone from Eastern Europe can still hop on a flight to Dublin, get a bus over the border, and then a ferry to mainland Britain without having to show their passport. Is this what "taking back control" looks like?

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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:43 am 

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I do wish we could stop going on about the £350M for the NHS. It's constantly used as some kind of bitter and twisted stick by those who voted Remain.

Dominic Cummings' banner ('who's he?' many will ask - 'wasn't it Boris or Gove?') actually said "We send the EU £350M a week", and "let's fund our NHS instead". Now I understand Marketing, I also understand obfuscation with intent, but the actual words do not say that £350M will be diverted to the NHS. I can see why the inference was taken, and indeed the inference was no doubt meant - I just hope people take more notice of the contracts they sign throughout their lives.

And, for the umpteenth time, for the sake of balance we shouldn't forget George's warnings of apocalyptic economic consequences and emergency budgets - warnings with regard to a Leave vote after the referendum I should add, not after the negotiations.

There was cr@p rhetoric on both sides - it's best left in the past and let's deal with the present.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:23 pm 
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...... but the actual words do not say that £350M will be diverted to the NHS ..... :lol:

Davis insisted he had never been misleading, and that the studies undertaken had never been intended as a quantitative analysis of how various parts of the economy could be affected by Brexit, in part as there were too many variables for this to be feasible. ......
.... “Do not draw the conclusion that because you use the word impact, you have written an impact assessment,” he said. :lol:

:lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:36 pm 

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Sorry - you are conflating two things. Makes no sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Brexit; Government's First Proposal to the EU
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Quinny wrote:
It's something I can't get my head around, Martyn. Probably THE biggest issue which was the driving force behind the #Leave campaign (bar lying about £350million a week for the NHS) was uncontrolled immigration. Yet thanks to this agreement, someone from Eastern Europe can still hop on a flight to Dublin, get a bus over the border, and then a ferry to mainland Britain without having to show their passport. Is this what "taking back control" looks like?


Apart from the ‘Troubles’ in the 70’s there has been free travel across the border since the Second World War - so what has changed?
Anyway, with around 300 border crossing it has always been easy to cross either way.
There will probably be increased checks on Great Britain ports and airports.


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