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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:42 pm 
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This is a virtually unique election where we all know the result already. So the winners by a big margin can basically set the bar low to give themselves room for the sh1t they're going to dump and the opposition can promise every Argyle fan a new Ferrari and a yacht ( sorry about the spelling, I remember getting that wrong in primary school :doh: ) and nobody cares.

I love Justin's passion. Really I do warm to it - but Labour's manifesto is like a new Cliff Richard album - his hardcore fans will adore it but nobody else gives a damn. He and it are from another age.


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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:35 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:24 am
Location: Saltash (or Feltham)
Ave_IT wrote:
Frank_Butcher wrote:
Justin wrote:
Frank_Butcher wrote:
The Pensioner issue is an interesting one as the Tories have tended to look after them. That said, I'm sure many hard working people would have loved a 2.5% guarantee over the last 5-10 years. The problem of course is for those Pensioners who are genuinely struggling. And it's not quite accurate to say the Winter Fuel Allowance will be removed when it will actually be means tested. Don't get me wrong, I have elderly parents and would be concerned, but it's importnat to reflect things accurately.

As for Justin's comments, it's a bit rich to suggest the Tory manifesto is uncosted when so much of Labour's is double/triple counted (Corporation Tax seems to have some magical properties where it can multiply at will) - and of course the re-nationalisation stuff isn't costed at all. Still, I'm sure Diane Abbott has the answers ;) .


Frank, Labours' is fully costed and legitimately so - don't believe the Torygraph. There's a whole dossier with all the detail - have you read it?


Nope I listened to the IFS.

The same IFS that said Brexit would be a disaster Frank? Thought you and Boris thought them partisan, untrustworthy 'experts' best ignored :wink:


Don't think I ever said that. You might recall I was very much on the edge between Leave and Remain and wrestled with that one for a long time.

Just like then, there's a lot of rubbish being spoken by both sides - this time on the Left and Right. So the only option is to go for the most plausible.


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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:45 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:51 pm
And I suppose the most plausible would be the turkeys voting for xmas party,the Tories?

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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:27 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:24 am
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Well, we're not exactly spoilt for choice.


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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 11:37 pm 
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gandalf_the_green wrote:
In the light of a depressing Tory manifesto I will have to reconsider my intention to vote for them.
To be honest it would be a bit like a turkey voting for xmas,why vote for the party who would remove the triple lock and your winter fuel allowance even though you have payed a fair amount of tax all your life and are not wealthy.

There is no political party that I feel represents me,so although I will vote, I am no longer sure who I will vote for.


I am genuinely interested to hear you say (write) that, aged-wizard-bloke, because I wonder how many other Tory-leaning pensioners outside the affluent Surrey belt feel the same. I get the impression that May wants to destroy Labour as an opposition party, and that she is so confident of the result next month she feels assured to introduce policies which even Thatcher would have shied away from. I wonder whether this policy could back-fire for her...?

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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:47 am 
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Quinny wrote:
gandalf_the_green wrote:
In the light of a depressing Tory manifesto I will have to reconsider my intention to vote for them.
To be honest it would be a bit like a turkey voting for xmas,why vote for the party who would remove the triple lock and your winter fuel allowance even though you have payed a fair amount of tax all your life and are not wealthy.

There is no political party that I feel represents me,so although I will vote, I am no longer sure who I will vote for.


I am genuinely interested to hear you say (write) that, aged-wizard-bloke, because I wonder how many other Tory-leaning pensioners outside the affluent Surrey belt feel the same. I get the impression that May wants to destroy Labour as an opposition party, and that she is so confident of the result next month she feels assured to introduce policies which even Thatcher would have shied away from. I wonder whether this policy could back-fire for her...?


It will probably change the minds of some people who intended to vote for her but not enough to prevent her continuing as Prime minister after June 8th.

For example my wife a lifelong Labour voter was going to reluctantly vote Tory mainly because she does not like Jeremy Corbyn,as a result of Mays manifesto she will be voting Labour again.

There are other less personal issues to consider such as defence where Labour has conflicting opinions on Trident,that situation is not helping them.On Brexit i have more confidence in the Tories negotiating with the EU than the others,and after all they got us into this situation and should be left to sort it out.

Then there's education,the removal of hot school lunches for infants being replaced by cold breakfast meals for primary school children,what's that all about,don't be so bleddy tight Tories,try and show some kindness,it's not always about money.

To vote Tory or not to vote Tory that is the question,and at the moment I have no idea what the answer will be.

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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:05 pm 
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I'm not suggesting for one minute Labour will win, but with them gaining 7 points on the Tories in a poll yesterday - which was taken prior to the Tory manifesto being launched - Theresa May might not get the rout she thinks she's going to get.

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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:42 pm 
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In answer to any question regarding NHS, care etc. the Tories just say we have given x amount of millions to that subject. It seems to be that the thought is that you just throw money at it and it will be solved which isn't the case. The way that money is used seems to be left to the bureaucrats within the particular services who sometimes seem to not have clue.
The government should be overseeing these services no just throwing money at them.

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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Ave_IT wrote:
I love Justin's passion. Really I do warm to it - but Labour's manifesto is like a new Cliff Richard album - his hardcore fans will adore it but nobody else gives a damn. He and it are from another age.


I had the shock of my life this weekend when my Mum who has never voted before told me she was going to vote Labour. Yet no-one but his hardcore fans give a damn... :doh:

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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Frazer Lloyd-Davies wrote:
Ave_IT wrote:
I love Justin's passion. Really I do warm to it - but Labour's manifesto is like a new Cliff Richard album - his hardcore fans will adore it but nobody else gives a damn. He and it are from another age.


I had the shock of my life this weekend when my Mum who has never voted before told me she was going to vote Labour. Yet no-one but his hardcore fans give a damn... :doh:

So a small ray of hope for us then Frank?

Actually, to be fair, the last week or so has been very good for Labour. The Tories’ supreme arrogance & confidence has seen them seriously cock up this campaign so far with astonishing displays of ineptitude – managing to alienate core support to the extent that even the Daily Heil was in uproar. Corbyn is also much happier addressing street rallies passionately attacking social injustice (which he has spent his whole life doing) rather than having to deal with the pesky day job business of managing people, developing detailed policies or answering tricky questions. He is having a surprisingly good campaign – if only he’d locked up Diane Abbott or encouraged her to have another one of her migraines (for a month). Theresa May looks thoroughly awkward and the usual slick Tory machine doesn’t seem up to scratch – some quite funny shots of her addressing a few dozen bored-looking old people in a field in stark contrast to Corbyn’s barn-storming performances to massive enthusiastic crowds wherever he goes. Embarrassing footage of her knocking on doors with no reply – or, even worse, being politely but firmly told by one householder she didn’t like her social care plans which have gone down like a lead balloon with middle England. I can’t get my head around that – in 2015 Cameron was talking about a ‘cap’ of £72,000 for social care costs now May proposes a floor of £100,000 which Labour have ingeniously dubbed a ‘dementia tax’. Astonishing.


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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:24 am
Location: Saltash (or Feltham)
Not Frank's Mum but Frazer's. FWIW Frank's Mum has always voted Labour but will not vote for JC.


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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:27 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:24 am
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Hard to deny it's been a bad week for the Tories. earlier I posted the opening of the launch where TM said 'Today I launch my mainfesto...' Which plays to the presedential criticism, as does all the Tory billboards saying that candidates are standing with TM. It demonstrates that Crosby et al saw her as the biggest asset and thought that TM vs JC was the trump card. It hasn't turned out that way as May often seems awkward and stilted in her delivery. This, contrasted with JC's undoubted passion for his radical policies has given Labour a real boost.

Policy wise, I'm astounded by the social care naivety. Let's be clear, social care is unsustainable in its current form and has to change, but why issue specific plans in a manifesto when a call for consultation would have been adequate - it was never going to be a vote winner.

Then we have a big rise in registration to vote by those of student age. No surprise of course, but bigger than usual and that will boost the Labour vote from those students who seem to have conveniently forgotten (or are too young to know) that it was Labour who introduced tuition fees in the first place.

So a poor week for the Tories, but I recall a pretty lacklustre campaign in 2010 which prompted a change in style with DC going all 'rolled up sleeves' and what turned out be a surprise outright majority. The Tories must now emphasise that the social care policy is a starting point for consultation, while also calling out the hair's breadth that IfS sees in the two party's NHS policies and the uncosted issues of re-nationalisation etc.

Mind you a smaller majority and JC refusing to step down could actually be a dream scenario. For the next 10 years....


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 Post subject: Re: General election - 8th June
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 11:08 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:54 pm
Ave_IT wrote:
This is a virtually unique election where we all know the result already. So the winners by a big margin can basically set the bar low to give themselves room for the sh1t they're going to dump and the opposition can promise every Argyle fan a new Ferrari and a yacht ( sorry about the spelling, I remember getting that wrong in primary school :doh: ) and nobody cares.

I love Justin's passion. Really I do warm to it - but Labour's manifesto is like a new Cliff Richard album - his hardcore fans will adore it but nobody else gives a damn. He and it are from another age.



Incredibly naive stating "we all know the result already". Weren't people saying the same with Brexit and US election?

I disagree with the comments about Labours manifesto too. I have seen a lot of would-be conservative voters become dissuaded by May's plans. Labour has a massive momentum at the moment and in light of the indeed depressing Tory manifesto and a record number of people registering to vote, certainly we have to believe that anything can happen.

For those that haven't made their mind up, this well written and articulate article is worth a read:

http://www.monbiot.com/2017/04/27/the-c ... ompetence/


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